First of all, welcome and thanks for your interest. Second, can this be moved to the 'Serious Discussions'?

So, let me explain the idea of this thread. You might have read some of my posts in the threads 'Over Population' & 'With or against cloning?'. If you did, you might have noticed me being real angry about our species.

My problem is, we are weak. We are stupid. Some might argue me saying that mankind has survived for the last few 1000 years, because we are so smart that we can solve our problems and think of solutions. I always think, what problem do we have actually solved, without creating 10 others?

We can cure many diseases. Yes, we can cure a few. But my question is, is that a good thing? Why are we running for death, whilst we have no idea (or at least can't agree) of what death actually is. I'm not saying we should all die at once, to find out, but I do think we should stop the fucking running. Why not accept our time of going, when it has come.

As said, in the 'Cloning' thread it was said that we are making progress. Sure we are. We have succesfully cloned a sheep, and in the near future we will probably be able to clone humans or grow bodyparts and we can use those to replace our own. I can't help to imagine us as Frankenstein's, with all different sorts off legs and stuff. Anyway, do you think this is good? My main arguement is that I believe we should follow the course of Nature, and therefore we should live as animals etc. So NO cloning for me. Yes, we will save lives with it, and call me heartless, but I still don't agree with it.

I think we are drifting further and further away from our course, the path we should take. If my world would become reality, we would all be placed back into prehistory and would just live and hunt. If my opinion, that is enough. All our machines that do the hard work for us, leaving us with more time for other things have made us decadent. We now need to philosophize about if there is a God, what road we should take and stuff like that. (Yes, I do see the irony)

So basically, do what the title says: Discuss us, the humanrace. I probably will meet some of you who disagree with me, but I'd be happy if we can discuss that. I'm always in for a good discussion.

PS: If anyone dares to say that we are discussion this through the internet, and thus through one of the main mistakes of mankind, wanting to be connected, I'm going to slap you.

I do see the irony in this, of course, and I know this may sound all a bit hypocritical because I am philosophizing too right now, but I've accepted that. I know that I cannot live up to my ideals, because they represent something I think we can never turn back too. But whatever, discuss!

Written by Lucas on 20.06.2006 at 14:39

I'm not saying we should all die at once, to find out, but I do think we should stop the fucking running. Why not accept our time of going, when it has come.

We fear death. Plain and simple. We don't know what happens after death, it's a fear of the unknown.

Written by Stigmatized on 20.06.2006 at 16:03

Written by Lucas on 20.06.2006 at 14:39

I'm not saying we should all die at once, to find out, but I do think we should stop the fucking running. Why not accept our time of going, when it has come.

We fear death. Plain and simple. We don't know what happens after death, it's a fear of the unknown.

Exactly. And therefor we run. And take the Earth and all their inhabitants in our fall.

@Nervel, so you think cultural evolution is a bad thing? I see it that cultural evolution is just the "next step" of evolution. Physical into chemical, chemical into biological, biological into cultural.

And while I agree with some of this "misanthropes are us" text here (we are driven by fear more than we'd like to admit and more that would be good for this planet), but I still don't see the human race as rotten to the core. Just close to the core

Every day I lose my hope in humanity, and every day some instance occurs, that restores that faith.

Well, I tried to put it better than just 'we suck'.

But yes, I do think evolution is bad. Or better said, OUR evolution. I always like to ask, do we really have a better life now than we had chasing animals?

@Nervel, no, we don't. My life is my life, and I live it as mine, regardless of the circumstances or environs, and hardships are hardships. But is our life worse now either? Surely, we have a stone age brain in a 21st century environment, and I like to think of our cognition as a byproduct of evolution, a poor sod trapped in our biology trying to make sense of it all. And most people never do.

But I think the fact that we are here, now, thinking about this, shows that it doesn't all amount to nothing. For all it's worth, cognition and metacognition, now that they did come to be, should not go to waste. Let your spirit fly free

I hate humanity and I hate humans, and I pretty much agree with you, Nervel, but I fail to see why to make a topic about this. I mean, shure, we can whine about things, but will that make a difference?

*Wait a second whilst I look up the word cognition in my dictionary.*

Well, I disagree with you there. I think our lives HAVE gotten worse.

I mean, we have polluted this world, and we will pollute every planet we are fleeing too. That means we probably learn nothing from it. We'll simply take controll of a new area, something we can probably do for a long time, since there are many planets.

Written by Damnated on 20.06.2006 at 21:29

I hate humanity and I hate humans, and I pretty much agree with you, Nervel, but I fail to see why to make a topic about this. I mean, shure, we can whine about things, but will that make a difference?

Just tell me, what difference will the official topic of Immortal make? And what does the topic of 'Football' change?

@Nervel, yes, we have done damage to the ecosystem, but what's done is done, and now the only hope this planet has to repair that damage is, ironically, us.

But can you not also marvel at the accomplishments of human culture? 6000 years ago already there were cities, mathematics, writing, culture. And now, in this post-modern world we have this sub-culture that thrives on alienation. Now, if there never had been any evolution, would it not have been good for this world to simply have stayed a barren rock?

Written by [user id=1987] on 20.06.2006 at 21:45

@Nervel, yes, we have done damage to the ecosystem, but what's done is done, and now the only hope this planet has to repair that damage is, ironically, us.

Maybe so. But do you really think humanity will come together as one for a single cause?

@Dream_of_Hate, if we do not believe in the possibility of change, then there most certainly will never be change.

There are people out there who believe in change. But, repairing the damage that we have done would be a equal effort on everyone's part.

I think my dislike towards humanity outweights my favoured attributes towards the human race.

I cannot give an exact year, but I believe that mankind reached its peak many years ago and currently we are declining. Why? I would say that there are too many distractions, such as television, Internet (irony strikes again!) etc. More people watch television than read a book, which is depressing. I remember reading a statistic about America (a country that is often perceived as a great, all mighty nation) that states only 33% of adults read in their spare time. This appaulled me because I consider reading a great thing. Reading expands our knowledge, creativity and possibly most importantly, our imagination.

This brings me to my second point, nicely. Aesthetics seem to be valued far more than intelligence nowdays. A classic example is the 'nerd' and bully. People being picked on because they are clever? Sounds insane. Indeed, I have come across a lot of people who refrain from telling people their exam marks because they are good and they are worried that they will be labelled as a 'boffin'. Quite unfortunate and a sure regression. There used to be a time when intelligence was regarded much higher. Sadly, these days have clearly dissolved. However, you can be conventionally beautiful and people will love you and feel drawn to you and in a lot of cases it doesn't matter what you do. I think this could have something to do with media input. Whether this is engrained in the human mind or not is something I cannot be certain on.

Present society has a great disregard for the world we live in. As already stated, the ecosystem is being trashed, with global warming, war, deforestation and over fishing as clear examples. I really wish preservation for the natural world was in higher regard rather than menial things such as owning the lastest CD or seeing the latest horror flick.

But it's not just disregard to the ecosystem; a vast amount of mankind does not respect others. For example, this is quite common in London as in other places I can imagine: if someone is walking down the road using their new mobile phone, many people will rob them with force if necessary. It's sad how there are no disregard towards the person's feelings or how hard they may have worked to obtain that phone. I have never been robbed in my life but the idea of it is pretty shocking, especially when people get robbed for trainers or items of clothes. But then again, morals and what is right and wrong are all human inventions.

My attitude towards humans? Leave them to themselves. They'll wipe each other out. I live in the suburbs of the biggest city here so I'm rather sick and tired of people and their double standards.

((PS: I think you should all be grateful when reading this post because I had to type it out twice since Firefox mysteriously closed for no reason while I was very near to the end!))

Written by Stigmatized on 21.06.2006 at 00:42

Written by [user id=1987] on 20.06.2006 at 21:45

@Nervel, yes, we have done damage to the ecosystem, but what's done is done, and now the only hope this planet has to repair that damage is, ironically, us.

Maybe so. But do you really think humanity will come together as one for a single cause?

I don't think we'd be able to pull that off. We have drifted to far away to repair it all. Plus, how many people have you met that seriously think we are heading the wrong way? We got used to our life as it is, and we wont give that away. Well, not if we're not forced too.

Written by Daru Jericho on 21.06.2006 at 04:53

I cannot give an exact year, but I believe that mankind reached its peak many years ago and currently we are declining. Why? I would say that there are too many distractions, such as television, Internet (irony strikes again!) etc. More people watch television than read a book, which is depressing. I remember reading a statistic about America (a country that is often perceived as a great, all mighty nation) that states only 33% of adults read in their spare time. This appaulled me because I consider reading a great thing. Reading expands our knowledge, creativity and possibly most importantly, our imagination.

Where do we need imagination for? I would go back way more than you, back to a life without tools. I think that only the essence is important, and for me the essence is sleep and food.

Quote:

This brings me to my second point, nicely. Aesthetics seem to be valued far more than intelligence nowdays. A classic example is the 'nerd' and bully. People being picked on because they are clever? Sounds insane. Indeed, I have come across a lot of people who refrain from telling people their exam marks because they are good and they are worried that they will be labelled as a 'boffin'. Quite unfortunate and a sure regression. There used to be a time when intelligence was regarded much higher. Sadly, these days have clearly dissolved. However, you can be conventionally beautiful and people will love you and feel drawn to you and in a lot of cases it doesn't matter what you do. I think this could have something to do with media input. Whether this is engrained in the human mind or not is something I cannot be certain on.

That what I made bold is what seems to be the problem everywhere. Jealousy.
Again, I agree with you to a certain point, my my view and ideals are much more radical.

Quote:

Present society has a great disregard for the world we live in. As already stated, the ecosystem is being trashed, with global warming, war, deforestation and over fishing as clear examples. I really wish preservation for the natural world was in higher regard rather than menial things such as owning the lastest CD or seeing the latest horror flick.

This will most probably never happen. Your own possession is always more important then the possession's of the collective, the 'others can take care of that'.

Quote:

My attitude towards humans? Leave them to themselves. They'll wipe each other out. I live in the suburbs of the biggest city here so I'm rather sick and tired of people and their double standards.

That's what I think too.

I feel I can't help this world, by cleaning it. It would probably be more useful if I'd speed up the process of our extinction.

Quote:

((PS: I think you should all be grateful when reading this post because I had to type it out twice since Firefox mysteriously closed for no reason while I was very near to the end!))

Thanks for taking the trouble to type it once, and even more for typing it twice!

I dont know what to believe actually... We are the perfect, yet worst species ever created... We are the reason for the destruction of our ecosystem yet the reason for the creation of the earth... I mean i cant find a specific defenition for humans... I'd personally like to define them as a fungus, or a virus because it lives on the account of others, in our case the account of our earth, and sometimes on the lives of our human brother... I dont think we should claim civilization at all...

Written by [user id=5381] on 21.06.2006 at 18:07

I dont know what to believe actually... We are the perfect, yet worst species ever created... We are the reason for the destruction of our ecosystem yet the reason for the creation of the earth... I mean i cant find a specific defenition for humans... I'd personally like to define them as a fungus, or a virus because it lives on the account of others, in our case the account of our earth, and sometimes on the lives of our human brother... I dont think we should claim civilization at all...

I didn't understand all of that post. Are we perfect? How come? Because we have controll over all other species on this planet. Then you and I have a different definition of perfect.

We are the reason for the destruction of the eco-system, yes true. But did we create this earth? Please tell me how you mean that. The creation of the Earth is mostly a religious question, and the religions that I know of blame it either on God, Allah, The Bigbang or whatever else. But I never heard someone say we created this Earth. Untill now, so please elaborate.

right, time to share my views with you :
(although probably they´re bullshit anyway )



first of all about civilization and if its a good thing or not, some claim civilization makes us happier, it doesnt, but not because we destroy the planet with it, that has nothing to do with it, more that the human as such will never be content with his/her situation, or at least not for long, back when we were even closer to the apes then we are now we werent happy with the situation, we made tools to make life easier for us.
now life was easier, were we content? no.
we sought for control over fire, and after a long time we controlled it, life was much easier for us, where we content? no. we wanted it to be even easier.
even now, thousands of years later, our lives are getting easier and easier, but still we arent content, still we want more, still we want it to be easier, and we always will, it doesnt lie in the nature of a human to be absolutely content, he/she will always want more, will always want to make a situation better, no matter how much better it already was compared to the beginning



second about jealousy, the reasons for it are (i think at least) quite simialar to those explained above, someone else is in a better situation then us, so we either try to turn it around and give us his superior situation (theft) or ruin it for im/her, making his situation equal or lesser then ours (bullying for example) either way we dont like to see someone else´s situation being better then ours, so we do something about it.

from a psychological point of view, we bully someone to be able to feel superior to him/her, which makes us happy for a moment, and since the human being needs its sources of happiness from time to time we do it, even if we know that it is wrong



as for humanity destroying itself, no it wont,
humanity will always exist because we are so egoistic, we will even do the lowest things if it means surviving, an example for this would be the nazi regime, the reason everyone listened to hitler was simply that they didnt have much hope and that surviving was hard at the time for the people in germany (due to having to pay huge amounts of money to france because of WWI) hitler told the people that if they follow him everything will be better, he gave them hope, his reasons why everything was so bad (blaming jews amongst others) might have been absurd, but nobody cared, they needed to survive, he promised them they would survive if they chose him, that was enough,
so i think humanity will always survive (or at least as long as this planet survives) because humanity will always try to survive, no matter the cost, (and btw this is also answering the point about why humans want medicine to survive and run from death) we dont necesarily do things because we want it, but because its one of our basic instincts, and surviving is our strongest basic instinct, of course there might be something better after death, but if you were given the choice if you want to live our die you would choose life, not because you think its better, apparently you dont, but because its one of your instincts

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:33

But I never heard someone say we created this Earth. Untill now, so please elaborate.

well he didnt say we created it, but more that we are the reason of its creation, i suppose he means with it that the planet exists for us, the human race?


as argument against this however, why did we only start existing so many million years after its creation?

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:33

I didn't understand all of that post. Are we perfect? How come? Because we have controll over all other species on this planet. Then you and I have a different definition of perfect.

We are the reason for the destruction of the eco-system, yes true. But did we create this earth? Please tell me how you mean that. The creation of the Earth is mostly a religious question, and the religions that I know of blame it either on God, Allah, The Bigbang or whatever else. But I never heard someone say we created this Earth. Untill now, so please elaborate.

Well my friend i didnt say that we created the earth, but i rather took it religiously claiming that the earth was founded for us, the human race... not more, and im saying that we are kind of uncomprihensible... i also took the idea of perfection in a religious point of view... Well religion claims us to be the perfect creation of the creator, yet i find us the worst possible creature to ever exist on this planet... You'll have to look at what i said with the religious scope to comprehend what i really mean... But if your a person who doesnt follow religion, but science and only science, then ill tell you that were the worst possible creatures that i can ever immagine... we destroyed nature, our mother, the reason for our existance...

Written by Bas on 21.06.2006 at 18:34

right, time to share my views with you :
(although probably they´re bullshit anyway )

I thought it was about time that you posted here.

Quote:

first of all about civilization and if its a good thing or not, some claim civilization makes us happier, it doesnt, but not because we destroy the planet with it, that has nothing to do with it, more that the human as such will never be content with his/her situation, or at least not for long, back when we were even closer to the apes then we are now we werent happy with the situation, we made tools to make life easier for us.
now life was easier, were we content? no.
we sought for control over fire, and after a long time we controlled it, life was much easier for us, where we content? no. we wanted it to be even easier.
even now, thousands of years later, our lives are getting easier and easier, but still we arent content, still we want more, still we want it to be easier, and we always will, it doesnt lie in the nature of a human to be absolutely content, he/she will always want more, will always want to make a situation better, no matter how much better it already was compared to the beginning

Some perfect examples of the lazy bastard a human is.

Quote:

second about jealousy, the reasons for it are (i think at least) quite similar to those explained above, someone else is in a better situation then us, so we either try to turn it around and give us his superior situation (theft) or ruin it for im/her, making his situation equal or lesser then ours (bullying for example) either way we dont like to see someone else´s situation being better then ours, so we do something about it.
from a psychological point of view, we bully someone to be able to feel superior to him/her, which makes us happy for a moment, and since the human being needs its sources of happiness from time to time we do it, even if we know that it is wrong

I see this also as an example of the overall boredom of man. Because we have more and more time for ourselves, we need to do things to fill it up. So we start to think about other lives, if they are as good as ours, we start doing all sorts of things.

Quote:

as for humanity destroying itself, no it wont,
humanity will always exist because we are so egoistic, we will even do the lowest things if it means surviving, an example for this would be the nazi regime, the reason everyone listened to hitler was simply that they didnt have much hope and that surviving was hard at the time for the people in germany (due to having to pay huge amounts of money to france because of WWI) hitler told the people that if they follow him everything will be better, he gave them hope, his reasons why everything was so bad (blaming jews amongst others) might have been absurd, but nobody cared, they needed to survive, he promised them they would survive if they chose him, that was enough,
so i think humanity will always survive (or at least as long as this planet survives) because humanity will always try to survive, no matter the cost, (and btw this is also answering the point about why humans want medicine to survive and run from death) we dont necesarily do things because we want it, but because its one of our basic instincts, and surviving is our strongest basic instinct, of course there might be something better after death, but if you were given the choice if you want to live our die you would choose life, not because you think its better, apparently you dont, but because its one of your instincts

I don't agree with the first sentence, but you're right in your further talking. Mankind would do everything to survive, but I think that we will run out of options. That even the lowest move couldn't save us.

I believe this planet will be destroyed before we can move to another, therefore taking us with Earth's destruction. (Though we are the ones destroying it, but you get my point.)

Think of it, our technology will need probably a few hundred years more to come to the point when we can make for example Mars liveable, and in that time I think that a desaster (for us) will happen.

Like, a giant explosion of some vulcano.
Or, a worldwide flood. An Ice Age. Meteor strike. Alien invasion. (:D)

I have no actual proove of one of those things happening in the near future, it is just speculation, but I think (or hope?) this will happen before we have time to flee.

Written by [user id=5381] on 21.06.2006 at 18:43

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:33

I didn't understand all of that post. Are we perfect? How come? Because we have controll over all other species on this planet. Then you and I have a different definition of perfect.

We are the reason for the destruction of the eco-system, yes true. But did we create this earth? Please tell me how you mean that. The creation of the Earth is mostly a religious question, and the religions that I know of blame it either on God, Allah, The Bigbang or whatever else. But I never heard someone say we created this Earth. Untill now, so please elaborate.

Well my friend i didnt say that we created the earth, but i rather took it religiously claiming that the earth was founded for us, the human race... not more, and im saying that we are kind of uncomprihensible... i also took the idea of perfection in a religious point of view... Well religion claims us to be the perfect creation of the creator, yet i find us the worst possible creature to ever exist on this planet... You'll have to look at what i said with the religious scope to comprehend what i really mean... But if your a person who doesnt follow religion, but science and only science, then ill tell you that were the worst possible creatures that i can ever immagine... we destroyed nature, our mother, the reason for our existance...

Ok, I misunderstood you. Sorry for that.

I don't know what my perspective is, but seeing as I am against science, can my perspective still be seen as the 'science-perspective'.

So basically, I don't follow religion nor science, but my own little 'Philosphy' that we shouldn't philosophize. Though this is very hypocritical as we're doing it right now.

Anyway, I quote you here

Quote:
Well religion claims us to be the perfect creation of the creator, yet i find us the worst possible creature to ever exist on this planet

Do you believe this? (I have nothing against religion, and would like a religious person to join this thread and share ideas)
Do you think we are perfect?

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:44

Think of it, our technology will need probably a few hundred years more to come to the point when we can make for example Mars liveable, and in that time I think that a desaster (for us) will happen.

Like, a giant explosion of some vulcano.
Or, a worldwide flood. An Ice Age. Meteor strike. Alien invasion. (:D)

i think we can survive even the biggest volcano explosion, the worst ice age, the biggest flood, maybe our numbers would GREATLY decrease, but it would also be possible to save a number of people (how many of course depends on how long we got time for preparations) and those could repopulate the world, it would take long, but it would be possible

as for a meteor, i think it should be possible to detect that long before it would wit the eart, and then we could attack it with nuclear bombs, lol

as for aliens, no idea, like all of us


but apart from aliens ( ) the only thing that could destroy us will be when the sun explodes, but this will happen in a few milliard years, not in a few hundred, so we will have time to develope ways to populate the mars

Written by Bas on 21.06.2006 at 18:51

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:44

Think of it, our technology will need probably a few hundred years more to come to the point when we can make for example Mars liveable, and in that time I think that a desaster (for us) will happen.

Like, a giant explosion of some vulcano.
Or, a worldwide flood. An Ice Age. Meteor strike. Alien invasion. (:D)

i think we can survive even the biggest volcano explosion, the worst ice age, the biggest flood, maybe our numbers would GREATLY decrease, but it would also be possible to save a number of people (how many of course depends on how long we got time for preparations) and those could repopulate the world, it would take long, but it would be possible

as for a meteor, i think it should be possible to detect that long before it would wit the eart, and then we could attack it with nuclear bombs, lol

as for aliens, no idea, like all of us


but apart from aliens ( ) the only thing that could destroy us will be when the sun explodes, but this will happen in a few milliard years, not in a few hundred, so we will have time to develope ways to populate the mars

You might be right, it is most likely that a few will survive. Let's hope it will only be two and will be two men.

And by the time the sun will explode, we will probably have invaded a few other galaxies, so it wont harm us anymore.

We might die because of human causes though. A WWIII perhaps? With nuclear bombs we can destroy a LOT. So it might go wrong in that direction. Of some poisenous gass, that escapes? I don't know what to expect.

However, do you know how big the thread is of bugs? I've heard they can stand radioactivite and are actually much stronger (in comparison) than us. How big do you count the chance that they will one day overtake us?

hmmm... well i dont really believe in it... its what the scripture says... but i cannot just follow the scripture blindly i mean this isnt a subject related to faith, and what i have seen till now that we humans are not perfect at all... we have all these problems in our lives such as greed, abhorance, jelousy, partial brain usage, stupidty... if we are perfect then we would become god ourselves... that is why i said in my first post here that I dont know what to believe... I actually dont take the side of religion except if there is a conflict between science and religion... but i dunno why i directly did here

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:56

However, do you know how big the thread is of bugs? I've heard they can stand radioactivite and are actually much stronger (in comparison) than us. How big do you count the chance that they will one day overtake us?

IMO none at all, the one big advantage we have over most other races is that we have hands and fingers, so we are able to create lots of things, that is the reason why we have been able to make some things (primitive tools and weapons) which made life easier for us, that then led to us making other things etc.

but as far as i know there isnt an insect with fingers and thusly/also no insect that can make more then just a web or a cocoon

Written by [user id=5381] on 21.06.2006 at 18:58

hmmm... well i dont really believe in it... its what the scripture says... but i cannot just follow the scripture blindly i mean this isnt a subject related to faith, and what i have seen till now that we humans are not perfect at all... we have all these problems in our lives such as greed, abhorance, jelousy, partial brain usage, stupidty... if we are perfect then we would become god ourselves... that is why i said in my first post here that I dont know what to believe... I actually dont take the side of religion except if there is a conflict between science and religion... but i dunno why i directly did here

Ah, I see.

That what I made bold, that is exactly what differs us from animals. They don't know emotion, therefore don't know jealousy and greed, etc.

It might be controversial to say that emotion makes us into the worst species we've become (IMO) but I think I do have the guts to say it.

Emotions makes us the worst species on this planet.

Written by Bas on 21.06.2006 at 19:01

Written by Lucas on 21.06.2006 at 18:56

However, do you know how big the thread is of bugs? I've heard they can stand radioactivite and are actually much stronger (in comparison) than us. How big do you count the chance that they will one day overtake us?

IMO none at all, the one big advantage we have over most other races is that we have hands and fingers, so we are able to create lots of things, that is the reason why we have been able to make some things (primitive tools and weapons) which made life easier for us, that then led to us making other things etc.

but as far as i know there isnt an insect with fingers and thusly/also no insect that can make more then just a web or a cocoon

But didn't our hands evolve from a sort of ball with five 'sticks' to the murder weapons they are now?

hehehehe you really do have the guts i dont think that its about emotions... i think its about infinite stupidty and boundless lust