I debated with myself on whether I should start such a discussion or not, given the fact that a) this is a locked part of the forum, and b) often serious discussions get derailed and when it happens whole threads are deleted after having turned to despicable cesspools of intolerance. I decided to take my chances because, for me, the cold blooded murder of George Floyd and the events that followed are important enough to warrant a discussion here.

I have followed the story from the beginning. I was appalled to see the video of a police officer choking a person (a black person) to death while people were watching and were taking videos of it with their phones. I saw the other police officers doing nothing but watching and being ready to attack anyone who wanted to intervene. It is the worst thing I have ever seen in my life; and I can assure you that I have seen the most awful stuff you can imagine committed by the worst scum of the earth because of my job. Yet, I had never seen one person killing another in an act that lasted 8 minutes and 46 seconds and during which it is evident on the perpetrator's face that he is enjoying it. He is fucking sick in the brain for sure, so a big part of the responsibility lies on the recruiting system that put him there and the assessment system that kept him on the job all these years. I will not be convinced that this was his first incident.

What struck me as outrageous was that in the beginning it seemed that (from the news I was reading) just firing the policemen would be enough. I couldn't believe it. How can someone get away with murder just by losing his job? I don't know what exactly triggered the outpouring of reaction in the following days but it may as well have been the willingness (as I perceived it) by the media to just sweep it under the rug.

I personally hate Antifa with passion because I think that their inability to have any sort of discussion with anyone disagreeing with them puts them in the same block of nazi-scum morons. However, all the violence in the US is justified. I don't agree with it but I understand it. Non-violence has achieved nothing so far. The looting and the destroyed property is "collateral damage". Does the term remind you of something? The US government has used it plenty of times for decades when referring to massive deaths of civilians while bombing different parts of the world in order to "liberate" them. If innocent people's deaths can be called "collateral damage", a few TVs, cars, and other material things that are probably insured anyway can also be called that, especially if the rest of the mobilization will eventually bring a much needed and long overdue change.

We live in 2020 and we are still talking about race equality. Are we fucking serious? A change needs to happen, and clearly Obama didn't bring it. The USA is a very fucked up (and still wonderful in some ways) country but at the same time whatever happens there (both good and bad) slowly comes to the rest of the western world (eg. Europe) and I am not at all thrilled at the idea of living in a racist continent in a few years, where everyone has a gun and police can kill you because of a forged banknote.

As a person living in Europe, I am shocked to see that everyone over there has guns, that police are free to be as brutal as they like with no consequences, that being black or white closes or opens doors respectively. That being black can even get you killed. I watch South Park because I find it funny; however, I am starting to find it less and less funny the more I realize that it is becoming more of an animated documentary than an animated satire.

I know that for reasons beyond my understanding I am somehow privileged to be born a white male in the western world (even in a country as fucked up as mine). However, I don't have a guilt complex. I don't feel responsible for all the inequality or the injustice in the world. And I don't feel that I have to justify myself for other white males' actions. I am putting this up for discussion because it is the least I can do for George Floyd's memory and for the memory of all the people that have unjustly died before him. May they rest in peace.

Before commenting, please READ AGAIN the rules and policies of the website and the rules of posting. I take full responsibility for opening a subject that might create controversy but I am warning everyone that I will be monitoring this one closely myself. The other mods and members of staff will do the same, I am sure. If you break the rules you will be banned and your comments will be deleted. This thread will not become in any way disrespectful to the person(s) who died. The same applies to generalizing/fascist comments like "acab", etc.

Of course I believe that all lives matter and, personally, I find the term "hate crime" ridiculous and wrong. Murder is murder. Full stop. The "hate crime" term only condones further discrimination. However, IceT explained three years ago in a perfect way why we have to talk about black lives and not all lives right now:

It's unfortunate that we even have to say 'Black Lives Matter'
I mean, if you go through history nobody ever gave a fuck
I mean, you can kill black people in the street
Nobody goes to jail, nobody goes to prison
But when I say 'Black Lives Matter' and you say 'All Lives Matter'
That's like if I was to say 'Gay Lives Matter'
And you say 'All Lives Matter'
If I said, 'Women's Lives Matter' and you say 'All Lives Matter'
You're diluting what I'm saying
You're diluting the issue
The issue isn't about everybody, it's about black lives, at the moment
But the truth of the matter is, they don't really give a fuck about anybody
If you break this shit all the way down to the low fucking dirty-ass truth

Written by nikarg on 04.06.2020 at 20:58



I personally hate Antifa with passion because I think that their inability to have any sort of discussion with anyone disagreeing with them puts them in the same block of nazi-scum morons.

So you have nr 21 there as well in Greece?
I hate them more and all what smash public and state and specially private properties, some folks try hard make one business and some assholes thrash it . I dont like it, I dislike such people and always will hate antifa whit passion even stronger as I hate wp assholes. I hate boat of those , they are same just different ideology and hate to violence. Same time I will stasy out from this discussion, I dont wanna provoke anybody, you know one misspell of maggot might give you consequences . I dont wanna waist my energy same time individual police assholes are always assholes, but its not whole police force, we need it, we need law n order. Try stop moderate forum and see one week hehehehe.

Written by Bad English on 04.06.2020 at 22:00

I dont wanna waist my energy same time individual police assholes are always assholes, but its not whole police force, we need it, we need law n order. Try stop moderate forum and see one week hehehehe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems people want more police accountability, not the end of law enforcement.

Well said. As an American, I have found the support and input of international voices very interesting. The United States has always viewed itself as exceptional, and, historically, in some ways it has been. Today, that viewpoint usually manifests itself in the belief that the United States of America is superior to all other countries, whether because of our economic strength or our cultural influence or the many freedoms we supposedly enjoy; it need not be said how vocal the supporters of this perspective have become in recent years, nested within layers of increased violence and discrimination against minorities and foreigners who do not fit the traditional, narrowly defined image of what it means to be "American." We're taught in school that we live in the best country in the world, that we're the envy of all nations, and that any kid can grow up to be president (unless you get shot in the back when you're 15 for trying to take your phone out of your pocket or something). The popular gut reaction to international criticism is to dismiss it, because other countries don't understand how things work here and they have their own bigger problems to deal with and, obviously, they're bloody foreigners. Whatever truth there may be to any of those points, the idea of American exceptionalism has become so potent that any attempt to criticize even the slightest misstep in policy gets framed as a seditious or malicious attack on everything the country was founded on and has ever stood for, whether that criticism comes from within or without. While it's true that the full context is something that can only be experienced from the inside (not that most people here ever bother to look for it anyway), it is important to hear what other people are saying - sometimes you need a perspective shift to wake you up and make you realize just how twisted out of shape things got when you weren't paying attention. What you said about American turmoil infecting the western world is also a strong pinch of reality: if all the world's a stage, the USA mugs the spotlight.

As an American, nothing about this is shocking. Violence against minorities is normal, gun violence is normal, abuse by the system is normal, police brutality is normal - things are escalating now in a largely unprecedented manner with the rapid upticks in public demonstrations being met with militarized responses and journalists, medics, children, bystanders, and peaceful protesters facing injury or death from a paranoid and sadistic police force, but this is all just building on long-established trends. That's very strange, because it should be as shocking to us as it is to you, given how much we pride ourselves on our devotion to freedom, equality, and our constitutional rights, which no longer include freedom of speech, the press, and peaceful assembly for the redress of grievances. This should be jarring to the people who claim to love their freedom so much that they won't even consider imposing limits on corporations or weapon ownership.

Your "collateral damage" comment is spot-on - and it isn't just a taste of warfare, but a fractional reminder of how often property and livelihoods have been directly or indirectly denied to all kinds of minorities over the years in this country. Two hundred years ago, black people were viewed as property; now, they are viewed as even less valuable than property. It is unfortunately ironic that minority-owned businesses will likely be among those that suffer the most as a result of looting and rioting, but the United States should be the envy of China in how it parades economic security and growth as the one and only measure of our success as a country. I will not dismiss damaged property as a "necessary sacrifice," because it isn't my property and I don't have any stake in it to surrender, but there are more important things, such as allowing black people to walk down the street without getting tailed by excitable Confederate apologists, having the police called on them by paranoid housewives, or being beaten to death by police officers who joined up just so they could punch other humans under the guise of maintaining peace. And beyond that, there are the waves of anti-Semitic incidents that have increased in the last few years, the anti-Asian sentiment that has arisen since the coronavirus spread, and the oldest punching bag in the whole continent: Native Americans.

We have found ourselves on the opposite side of the ideas that we revolted against two and a half centuries ago. I am hesitant to use historical examples because of how trite they can be and how easily hijacked they are, but watching footage of a police force murder the citizens it swore to protect and break up groups of protesters with disproportionately violent actions is reminiscent of Gwangju or Bloody Sunday (any of the dozens there have been, whether Russia or Ireland or wherever). Today happens to be the 31st anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, which seems particularly significant. Of course we haven't reached the stage of unchecked mass slaughter of dissenters, but somehow a lot of Americans fail to realize that ignoring individual acts of injustice like the killing of George Floyd and allowing the government total impunity is precisely how we arrive at that point. The unwillingness to see our own failures and the tendency to frame all criticism as anti-American, unconstitutional propaganda are killing the great ideas that this place was founded to preserve.

Therefore, I appreciate you sharing your views on the matter, Nik - both as a foreign observer for your outside perspective and as yet one more person who is thoroughly disgusted with the state of racial tension, governmental impotence, and virtually unfettered police brutality in this country.

Written by IBlackened on 04.06.2020 at 22:36

Written by Bad English on 04.06.2020 at 22:00

I dont wanna waist my energy same time individual police assholes are always assholes, but its not whole police force, we need it, we need law n order. Try stop moderate forum and see one week hehehehe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems people want more police accountability, not the end of law enforcement.

You are correct. If anything, people want the beginning of law enforcement.

Kevin, sweden is best in a world, we have more if youre homles or poor. We have homles poeple here.
Police in sweden are to polite to real thugs, criminals. I Want see cops deeöing whit drugs, gangs, violent assault as they jump in football riots.

To me, i am not a rasist, antifa or wp, dislike boat, i live in 2020 not 1788, i have friends in different nationallities, colors, religion, but I doubt it ever will end, probably wintersuns new albun will be out and ozzy will put out 5 albums, so it will never end, i think so.

I like my metal black, so black that police officer will shoot it.

Joke but well, i dont support such things even i am an asshole, but not wp kind asshole

Written by IBlackened on 04.06.2020 at 22:36

Written by Bad English on 04.06.2020 at 22:00

I dont wanna waist my energy same time individual police assholes are always assholes, but its not whole police force, we need it, we need law n order. Try stop moderate forum and see one week hehehehe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems people want more police accountability, not the end of law enforcement.

Well in Europe we have Police, and secret Police and detectives, Law enforment is more USA thing, dea, atf, sheriff, Texas rengers, detectives, FBI anf do on...

As I understand it one of the great problems with the US police force (especially in the larger cities) is in the way they're being trained. There's not enough emphasis on de-escalating a situation or using 'reasonable force' to subdue a potential deadly combatant; instead it's more of a shoot-to-kill policy whenever an officer thinks his life might be in danger. This kind of training results in needless deaths when many of these situations could (and should) have been handled differently. Of course some of these officers, like the one who killed George Floyd, seem to harbor a sadistic streak that takes the problem to an entirely different level.

In 2020 it's truly depressing that racial equality is still an issue in this country. But given our history and the relatively short time the US has been a country, I suppose it's not surprising. I hope to see a time when character- not skin color- is what matters most to people, but I'm not holding my breath.

Shot to Kill id one thing, but shoot to Kill only black people is another. Same time in us military type of weapons are every where, pistol even more. Those guys go to work and can be Killed evey day.

In sweden only big dicks use guns, and less against Police. Its big difference here n there.

Saying "All Lives Matter" is like saying "All Houses Matter" to the fire department and having them spray down every house with gallons upon gallons of water, even the ones that are not on fire and are perfectly fine. BLACK LIVES MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He got killed over a counterfeit bill. The officer used a technique that was if not banned then very disregarded. The officer standing on his neck had 18 prior complaints. There isn't a sentence yet, but I feel like any charges would've been dropped by now if it wasn't for the mob anger.

I'm glad people are riled up about this. Even if they're virtue signaling. Even if big corporations are only chiming in to appear woke. Even if much worse things are happening. Even if non-black victims of police brutality aren't in the main discussion. At least something is happening. Some change is better than no change. And if there is a change in the way people see this, and they start seeing this as completely unacceptable instead of a tolerable injustice, it was worth it. And it will be especially worth it once those four fuckers are in jail, and every other cop who might get too trigger happy will see that this could be them if they don't start threading a little more lightly.

And of course protests aren't as bad as ones in other places. The state barely killed anyone during these protests, but they still basically break the Geneva convention, attacking nurses, or people who are not even protesting, even children, and generally being unnecessarily brutal. Articles and footage on this may be scarce (but there is some), since they are attacking reporters, so much so that the US got added to the list of most dangerous countries for journalists for the first time.

They want the riots to turn violent, so then they could delegitimize the protests. Of course there are opportunists who wanna loot or wanna vent off anger on innocents. A lot of local businesses were unnecessary victims and a lot of people got their livelihood ruined. Some of them have posted gofundme pages since, so if you have any of those, link them here. But agitators are specifically looting. They also got caught lying about looting.

Inevitably COVID-19 numbers will rise. Obviously they'll blame protesters.

I wish non-violent means were more effective. A lot of people saying that these protests should have stayed peaceful (even if a lot of them are peaceful, and in a lot of cases the police escalate the situation). But they were peaceful for years before this happened. Remember when Colin Kaepernick kneeled and he was still demonized for it, even though that's the most peaceful form of protest I can think of. People love to bring up MLK and how he advocated for non-violent protest. They shot him too. And don't tell me that riots don't work. The entire damn country was built on one sparked by an incident of police brutality. It involved property damage.

Of course white people are police brutality victims too. In fact, most of them are, but white people are also the majority period. Of course all lives matter, and that the common thread here is police using their force unjustly and the state having a monopoly on violence, but honestly what does "All Lives Matter" say other than diluting the issue. It sounds like a god damn pro-life anti-abortionist slogan, which is a topic for another time. But you hear "Black Lives Matter" and you already know it's about police brutality. You already have the image of the black man with a knee on his neck.

And sure, we live in """post-racial""" times. But remember that we almost lost 30 years of the most important jazz music because a cop beat up Miles Davis for standing in front of the bar he was to perform in. Or that the government experimented with infecting black men with syphilis. Or when they literally bombed Philadelphia. There was a lynching as recently as 1981. Or how we're almost one hundred years away from the devastation of Black Wall Street.

It was really weird seeing so many people who were adamantly defending the Hong Kong and Iran riots putting these down. Or the same people who were saying that the covid shutdown and asking people to wear masks was tyranny, but imposing the curfew is a-ok. A lot of people make the case that despite all the shootings, we should keep guns because the 2nd amendment and something about defending yourself from the govt in case it turns tyrannical. Which is pretty much what is happening now.

Don't really have sources on these other than hearsay, so take with a grain of salt, but there's plenty of reports of police shooting at people filming from their balconies (ok, maybe there's a source), hiding their badges and turning off their body cameras, dragging people from their cars, warning Proud Boys to hide before using tear gas, and resuming violence right after taking all those "kneeling in solidarity" pics you see on social media. Plenty.

Also Chauvin's wife filing for divorce the night he was in custody surely doesn't have anything to do with the reported 40% domestic abuse rate in families with police officers.

Just to reiterate. It was all over a counterfeit 20$ bill. Just to show that there is no law so trivial that the state won't kill you to enforce it. Or maybe it wasn't over that.

Even the K-Pop stans are helping. Here's how you can help too.

And just in case you thought the police is the only evil thing about America, there's also this.

As a multiracial American in South Florida who grew up in both middle class white neighborhoods as well as ghetto black neighborhoods, I think my past experience and background offers a bit of a different perspective on all that's going on right now. 4 - 5 years ago I was involved in a lot of revolutionary communist and anarchist groups in this area. I distanced myself from virtually all of them after the Trump inauguration as I just saw too much nonsense and desire for needless escalation among leaders and members. But the entire experience still shaped me considerably. I also have many relatives who were Black Panther or BLA members in the 60s and 70s on my father's side of the family. Identifying with the underdog struggling for radical change, especially in a more militant fashion, has and probably always will be a part of my history. I'll try to offer my thoughts on the events in the US since May 25th without typing a dissertation.

This is probably the most explosive series of protests and riots over the killing of an unarmed person of color in America since Ferguson in 2014. It has taken on an international dimension, people have begun directing their anger more toward actual police departments, city halls, and government buildings, and there is talk of drastic reformation of police as well as the need for analysis of what police as an institution in America really are and ought to be. It's great because this is bringing people closer to understanding the reality of the fact that US police are currently more agents of the state than servants of the people. Black and other POC in America have known this for decades. But in the age of social media and nearly everyone having phones with video cameras in them, the increased awareness of what's been going on for centuries is finally hitting and eliciting sympathy from white America. This is important, because the majority of America, especially when it comes to the political and economic structure, is still white. Blacks and POC may start noise over these incidents on a county or state level. But it will take their message striking a chord with the heart of white America to actually elicit lasting, institutional change on the national level. Slowly, roughly since the Trayvon Martin killing in 2012, that "striking a chord" has begun to happen. The Floyd incident may very well be bringing it to a peak.

Through it all, the emergence of a more militant mindset has emerged in certain segments of the black community, and perhaps even the white community, though to a much smaller extent. This is a positive development to me, as at last people are starting to come full circle again to the more "by any means necessary" mentality of the later Civil Rights era of 50 years ago, even if gradually. "By any means necessary" does not mean indiscriminate attacks on police or government infrastructure. But it does mean that, effectively "if you shoot me, there's a chance I'll shoot back." This is a direction we need to go in, as drastic and alien as it may still sound to some people. While I certainly will continue to identify with and support peaceful protesters and demonstrators, after a while when one considers American history it does become a little unbelievable that people are still willing to almost dogmatically cling to nonviolence as their predominant tactic. The US government has put people in internment camps. Police in America have done no knock raids on people of color, both activists and non, and shot them in cold blood in their beds. Police in America dropped a bomb on an entire neighborhood in the 80s to root out a black anarchist organization in Philadelphia. When people can look at all of this and still say "yes, nonviolence is the best option," instead of warming up more to the idea of armed self defense or even some type of proportionate retaliation.... I am a bit awestruck, I must confess.

There is a delicate balancing act to walk through in all of this. As I stated above, one has to keep the prevailing attitude among white Americans in mind. The idea of armed black militants fighting against government oppression and police brutality, even if their cause is justified, can easily strike fear in white America. It did with the Panthers in the 60s, and it can just as easily happen today, especially with all the media slander and propaganda that's been directed at the black community in the decades since. So any activists who choose to go in this direction must be extremely careful about only using violence as a means of self defense, not as a premeditated attack upon police, government buildings, etc. This is not to say that the latter wouldn't have some degree of legitimacy or justification to it. But it would ultimately do more harm in helping to sway the (mostly white) public against the cause in the first place, and give racist politicians like Trump and his ilk more ammunition for police subjugation of minority communities. In my firm opinion, however, we in America most definitely need a contemporary movement akin to the Panthers or BLA. It is desperately needed in the black community, especially when one considers the fact that, on the flip side, white supremacists in America are becoming more dangerous and better armed. After a point POC cannot logically continue to show up to marches and other demonstrations where these clowns are toting assault rifles, wearing body armor, bringing shields, and are arriving with a clear desire to incite violence in a purely nonviolent fashion. We must send a strong message that if they come looking to injure or even kill POC, they stand just as equal a chance of being injured or killed themselves in the process.

In certain circles, what I just suggested above would be condemned as "too radical," "pro violence," or whatever. But to anyone who would perceive it in that way, I would simply ask them to stop and consider for a moment who the biggest perpetrator of violence truly is in America. Because, as counterproductive and short sighted as their actions may be, it is certainly not people on the streets looting businesses and setting fire to cop cars and government buildings. We stand at an interesting point in America right now. The protests are still predominantly nonviolent in nature, but as several people noted above, there is an increasing sentiment, especially among black Americans of "nonviolence is not enough." And that is crucial toward planting the seeds for a more revolutionary mentality that may finally make the push toward representing a more serious threat to the long entrenched systems of institutional racism, police brutality, and income inequality that have so long been devastating marginalized, impoverished communities in America.

To anyone protesting in America, or elsewhere in the world, stay safe and keep your eyes on the ball. All power to the people.

Pretty much I agree with what everyone said above.

But for the very first time I thought, United States of America was very close to get justice like Armenian Revolution in 2018.

Damn radu comment is damn great and links are great way to write.

Small Changes are better as no Changes, and small change i hope can bring bigger Changes. Put your bibble in a closed and check out in your desctop it is 2020, not 1733.

I feel that any attempt of mine to share some sort deep and interesting perspective regarding all of this would come across as painfully inadequate, because it most likely is painfully inadequate. I am just one white man from Estonia, I cannot being to comprehend how difficult it is to be a black man or woman in the US. I won't share my perspective directly, instead I'll share my experiences and my feelings. I hope that will be enough.

The cold-blooded murder of George Floyd makes me feel ill.

The hypocrisy from so many of the the people opposed to BLM that focus on the looting and rioting makes me feel angry. There have been peaceful protests from groups and individuals before, so many of them and nothing or almost nothing has changed. Victims of injustice can only take so much before they have no choice but to react more strongly.

The peaceful protesters, who are the overwhelming majority, make me feel hope.

Those police officers and chiefs who take the knee or treat the protesters with respect and care also make me feel hope.

I observe all these things from the safety of my home in The Baltic States and as a person who hates to travel, for the first time in my life I wish I had the money to travel to The US only to join the protesters. I want to do something about all this, I truly do. I want to take a stand with BLM and I wish I could do that literally where the protests are happening in The US.


And now to my home country...

The top thumbed up comments under almost all news items covering all of this in Estonia make me sick to my stomach. The blatant racism, ignorance, self-importance and hypocrisy on display is both unbelievable and unforgivable.

I recall seeing Asians and Black people on the streets of Tartu (the largest city in my area) and how they walk past others with their eyes fixed on the ground, they never look you in the eye and some friends of mine from Tartu once commented on how that's always the case and how when a black person works as a delivery guy/gal, he or she always acts with the utmost surprise when one is polite to them upon receiving their pizza or whatever.

I don't know what I can do about the situation in the US. I've asked a friend there where I should send a donation, but he says that almost all charities are corrupt and that the best anyone can do is to listen and be kind. Solid advice, but it doesn't feel like it would be enough... IDK

I am not sure what to do about the comments under online news publications here in Estonia. One only has so much energy to debate racist scumbags or even to correct the non-racists who are simply misinformed. I have left comments, where I share experiences my friends from the US have shared with me, as well as statistics that back up those experiences, but I am not sure how much good that'll do.

I do know what to do with regard to foreigners, black or otherwise, who reside in Estonia. I shall look for every opportunity to show them that they are welcome and valued, if not by society as a whole, then certainly by me and all my friends that I know are good people and feel as I do.

For what it's worth, these are my feelings and thoughts on all of this.

Black Lives Matter.

All the power in the world to those, who fight in order to make all of mankind realize this.

Written by Metren on 06.06.2020 at 01:45

the best anyone can do is to listen and be kind. Solid advice, but it doesn't feel like it would be enough...

I do know what to do with regard to foreigners, black or otherwise, who reside in Estonia. I shall look for every opportunity to show them that they are welcome and valued, if not by society as a whole, then certainly by me and all my friends that I know are good people and feel as I do.

The older I get the more I realize that this is actually enough. General change comes by changing oneself first. Many parts make a whole. You cannot make everyone think and act the way a human being should, but setting the example through your own behaviour is a lot more effective than trying to convince with words those who are already way too prejudiced and have their heads up their arses. Social media debate is often pointless, this is something I have come to accept after many efforts of presenting valid arguments and trying to have a conversation. The people are polarized, and tend to see other people as "you are either with us or against us". There is no middle ground, common sense is often non-existent.

I share your hope but I cannot say I am very optimistic. As Angel N. mentioned, the U.S. are currently in the spotlight, but despicable crimes against humanity have been taking place every day for decades in various parts of the world. I think it was about a week ago when I read about a 14-year-old Iranian girl that was beheaded in her sleep by her father in some sort of "honour killing". It was not top news, I scrolled down many articles in the Guardian website and then came across it. Had this happened in North America, in Europe, or in Australia, it would have made the headlines. But for Iran, we think it's normal, not so news-worthy, it happens all the time and no one cares.

There are times when I get very misanthropic and feel that the only solution would be for the human race to just vanish, to become extinct. At least all the other species and the environment will benefit from our disappearance, the Covid lockdowns have proved this much. As Lord Slothorp said, "I hope to see a time when character- not skin color- is what matters most to people, but I'm not holding my breath."

Written by Metren on 06.06.2020 at 01:45

Those police officers and chiefs who take the knee or treat the protesters with respect and care also make me feel hope.

You might be overly optimistic about this.

Written by Metren on 06.06.2020 at 01:45

I want to do something about all this, I truly do.

You can

Written by Metren on 06.06.2020 at 01:45

And now to my home country...

Your experiences are somewhat similar than mine, except that I very rarely have seen people that are not white in Romania, and the only such people I interacted with in Romania is the Chinese server at the Chinese restaurant in my city. It's not that I avoid them, it's that I both generally don't interact with people and I barely saw any foreigners.

However Romania has a somewhat similar problem. With a different minority. A part of it stems from their name being so close to ours despite them not having the same root. I am sure that if I use "romani" and "romanians" from now on, people will confuse the two. So I will just use "gypsy", even though that is somewhat of a slur, so if any romani person sees this, I am not using it derogatorily.

In Romania the official way to refer to them is "people of Rom ethnicity" quite akin to how black people are referred to as "African-Americans". They were both slaves for a very long time, but this is a surprisingly little known fact here. They're both pretty famous for their musical influence, with there being a sub-genre called gypsy jazz, and a style of gypsy pop called manele that gets a lot of bad rep in Romania, mostly due to racist reasons. A common theme in manele, other than love obviously, is being successful, smart, having more money than your enemies. Does it sound similar to rap in any way? I'm sure the reasons for it are the same.

A lot of them live in extreme poverty, usually in segregated neighborhoods that are quite no-go zones for most other people. Crime is obviously rampant in these communities, and among their people in general. People living in poverty who were enslaved resort to crime and "swindling"? Complete shocker. Especially when they're seen as lazy dirty thieves. How much of it is really their own responsibility and how much is because of how we treat them? We've had riots too.

I have had a few bad experiences with them. My phone got stolen by one. They offered to change my father's drains on the house for a price, did it and then asked for a higher price. He paid because they said that they know where we live. One of my friends got chased by a gang of them threatening to cut his hair. These are all fairly common and they're not even that bad.

It's quite a vicious cycle, discrimination breeds contempt which breeds conflict which breeds more discrimination and so on. They will always be seen as lazy thieves as long as they don't prioritize honest work, and they will always be lazy thieves as long as people leave them in their poverty and refuse to have anything to do with them. Change should come from both sides, but that's very idealistic. For us privileged Romanians, it's much easier to sweep the whole issue under the rug, clutch our wallets when walking past one, and keep listening to manele at parties.

Marten, i hade same, first i hate travel and I hate big cities, Tallinn is for big, but I love vana Tallinn. Since i grew up in your naibor country. No offemce Che, but first time i saw black man was 1994 imo. I was straring to him like he was alien. In East Europa red deseas die to late and Iron cuertan burn to late. Whole East Europa ultras are wp, so biggest racist we have is football related.

My old m an said, dont belong, you be free, dont be ultra, you can travel to other city. Dont be White, you can go to blues bar and see Nice ppl. We had one bicker club Raven hearth, i know all lads in there, there was fight about puss and boobs ehh booze. It broke and few made wolfs brothers. Some went to jail. I was free Because i hade friends in boat packs.

When i first time was in Stockholm whole ppl, black, White, Green, blue pissed me of. To many i had panik. Now in a north well we have o ppl and coronavirus. Some places still has snow. I grew up whit Western tv, so i have no race ishue. I am just an asshole what likes small town, Mountains, Yes band to. Forest, Solitude. I dont like many ppl around. I have fri
friends black, white, asian, persian and so on.

Written by RaduP on 06.06.2020 at 09:58

You can

Thank You!!!! I'll look into all those!!!

And the reason why I am somewhat hopeful is because a few friends of mine from the US seem to be and neither of them is a naive person. They might be wrong, I might be wrong. Hope, when supported by actions is still a good thing I'd say.

Written by RaduP on 06.06.2020 at 09:58

Gypsy thoughts

Thank you for this insight. I was aware that there has been a longstanding history in Romania of gypsies more or less being regarded as "the other," but I didn't really think that the manner in which they're treated and how they've reacted to the discrimination against them had so many parallels to blacks in America. Truly, racism, gentrification, and ethnic marginalization are not a blight unique to any one specific country. I can only hope that, in a way, the Floyd protests may have the broader effect of getting people in other countries to wake up and take more direction against such issues in their back yards as well. Indeed, this seems to be already happening, especially in Australia from what I understand, with more whites beginning to ally with the various indigenous/Aboriginal movements.

As far as some of the comments above, however, along the lines of "oh people are just virtue signaling and only really care when things like this happen in the US or West".... I can see where you all are coming from, but I have to disagree. As an American, in a country where a lot of people are overwhelmingly oblivious to and ignorant of history and cultural sensitives outside of the Western hemisphere, I have seen more and more people tuning into and expressing feelings of solidarity with oppressed people outside that realm, especially this past decade. The Iranian protests earlier this year after the US killed Soleimani received a lot of attention and support from Americans. More and more citizens spit on the idea of Iran as a backwater, third world country and began to see that there are thousands of people there fighting to get out from under the boot just as people of color are in America. The 2014 Boko Haram kidnapping of the schoolgirls in Nigeria received a lot of attention and sympathy from Americans. The 2015 genocide of that Muslim minority in Burma drew widespread international condemnation from people in both the West and East alike.

We would be lying to ourselves if we said that there is no element of favoritism or greater sympathy on the part of people in the West toward incidents of police brutality and government oppression that occur in the West. But to speak as if this is always the case, I believe, would be a bit of an unfair, reductionist take on the issue.

Che, Romania, bulgary, Hungary and serbia gypsies are huge minoroty, and they om realluty has less right as black in USA. Things happen, Police dont care much and dont do much if things happens whit them. Sometimes tv talk about it, but its it

More thoughts... I've been a bit in my feels these past few days after reading this article from a communist organization in South Florida that, while I've long since left the ranks, I still follow on Facebook just to see their takes on ongoing issues. It's left me with some mixed feelings that I feel I need to express.

In the context of the George Floyd protests and riots, the article makes the argument that this ongoing movement still poses virtually no threat whatsoever to the bourgeoisie in America or the deeply entrenched systems of institutional racism, structural violence via police brutality and gentrification, and so on. If anything, it maintains, you have noticed in the past 2 weeks the corporatization of the movement if nothing else, with millions of dollars being sent in the way of Black Lives Matter and various giants such as Facebook, Amazon, Walmart, and the like chiming in to voice their support. I believe it would be naive to ignore this pattern.

While my heart wants to say "good on them" as an initial reaction, the more I pan out to the bigger picture the more skeptical I become of this trend. Any movement thinking that it is going to go in a truly revolutionary direction by gaining endorsement from entities already firmly embedded in the prevailing socioeconomic structure of the country (which purportedly they're fighting against in the first place) is walking a dangerous path. True revolutions in history have never been achieved by purely operating within the framework of the established status quo. You don't get more "status quo" in America in the 2020s than some of the corporations I listed above.

If there's any lesson from past revolutionary movements in America, it's that the establishment has learned from them and how simple it can now be to commodify them and turn them into something marketable. This is the perspective of the capitalist elite at this point in America. Their immediate reaction isn't necessarily to squash out protests against the status quo (although they certainly still do that via state and local police), but also to ask the question of "how can we turn this into a profit?" And once they go all in on that investment, it is remarkably easy for movements that start off in the radical, revolutionary spirit to become diluted and defanged over time. Look at what happened to Anonymous and Occupy, for instance. I see the same thing happening now to Black Lives Matter.

I will continue to support all my brothers and sisters protesting in America or elsewhere in the world as a part of BLM or in otherwise nonviolent fashion, at least in principle. But perhaps no longer in strategy. I believe the time for the emergence of a more militant movement in America that stresses the same goals but believes more in armed self defense and is more wary of support and financial assistance from mainstream politicians and big business owners is long past due. Whether we're going to make that jump in America remains to be seen. But I am happy to see more warming up to the idea and having the type of conversation expressed in the linked article.

This video is really good and hits the nail on the head. The line in the end "they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge" is of great importance.

Written by nikarg on 10.06.2020 at 01:12

This video is really good and hits the nail on the head. The line in the end "they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge" is of great importance.

No way in hell you're making me watch John Oliver

Written by nikarg on 10.06.2020 at 01:12

The line in the end "they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge" is of great importance.

Equality over revenge may indeed be the prevailing mentality at the moment, but I believe it would be unwise to ignore the opposite end of the spectrum as well. Even if still in a relatively extreme minority, I have definitely heard more radical communist and borderline black supremacist groups in the past 2 weeks calling for attacks on police, indiscriminate targeting of white civilians, etc. The conversation is out there, and several groups, not merely the white supremacist assholes, are looking to use the George Floyd incident as a catalyst for a racial war they see as being a long time coming.

It gives me an uneasy feeling that after a certain point one such extremist fringe group or even perhaps just a lone wolf individual or two will eventually do something incredibly stupid that brings an enormous public backlash against the entire movement. Thereby giving racist, fascist, Trump-ian politicians more ammunition with which to legitimize state repression. I'm not sure how closely you follow US politics, but for instance a few years ago, in the aftermath of the Ferguson riots, there was a black man in Baton Rouge, Louisiana who sniped and killed 4 police officers, and he went on later to claim Black Lives Matter affiliation.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we begin seeing behavior like this again soon. And even if, at the day's end, it still only amounts to several sporadic incidents, those incidents in and of themselves could serve as enormous influence upon public opinion, most likely for the worse.

Written by Auntie Sahar on 10.06.2020 at 18:17

Written by nikarg on 10.06.2020 at 01:12

The line in the end "they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge" is of great importance.

Equality over revenge may indeed be the prevailing mentality at the moment, but I believe it would be unwise to ignore the opposite end of the spectrum as well. Even if still in a relatively extreme minority, I have definitely heard more radical communist and borderline black supremacist groups in the past 2 weeks calling for attacks on police, indiscriminate targeting of white civilians, etc. The conversation is out there, and several groups, not merely the white supremacist assholes, are looking to use the George Floyd incident as a catalyst for a racial war they see as being a long time coming.

It gives me an uneasy feeling that after a certain point one such extremist fringe group or even perhaps just a lone wolf individual or two will eventually do something incredibly stupid that brings an enormous public backlash against the entire movement. Thereby giving racist, fascist, Trump-ian politicians more ammunition with which to legitimize state repression. I'm not sure how closely you follow US politics, but for instance a few years ago, in the aftermath of the Ferguson riots, there was a black man in Baton Rouge, Louisiana who sniped and killed 4 police officers, and he went on later to claim Black Lives Matter affiliation.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we begin seeing behavior like this again soon. And even if, at the day's end, it still only amounts to several sporadic incidents, those incidents in and of themselves could serve as enormous influence upon public opinion, most likely for the worse.

But even if something like that did happen, it still wouldn't compare to anything they have done or will keep doing in the future. If the publics educated enough they would have an understanding of why something like that or any of this happening.

Written by no one on 10.06.2020 at 20:27

But even if something like that did happen, it still wouldn't compare to anything they have done or will keep doing in the future. If the publics educated enough they would have an understanding of why something like that or any of this happening.

I never said it would, or that violent, proportionate retaliation such as what I described wouldn't have at least some degree of justification behind it. But again, as I said before, you have to consider the backlash of public (especially white) opinion that can ensue from such behavior. That is important toward actually eliciting the long term change. Black or POC revolutionary groups can say "fuck public opinion, we're not interested in what whites think anyway" all they want. And they might have a strong reasoning for doing so. But that doesn't mean that potentially turning that sympathy and support from white America back on them through further escalatory behavior would be a good idea.

Nationwide in America right now, and even in the halls of Congress, there is talk of drastic police defunding, an end to Qualified Immunity, and reform that would make it easier for civilians to sue police officers and departments, all of which would have been unthinkable just 2 weeks ago. The second there's any sort of national spike in cop killings or indiscriminate targeting of government infrastructure, however, the politicians will become far more reluctant about extending any such concessions.

We witnessed two most highlighted race wars in a decade under two administrations - Ferguson under Obama and this under Donald Trump with internet and modern media houses rage-fuelling emotions drawing out their own inflated theoretical perspectives. Net results? Ensuing of collateral damage among more peaceful living communities. Just like countless racial tensions fragmenting American societies for a very long time, but the difference here is, it goes unnoticed.

Could I be proven anymore wrong that racial discrimination is an integral part of American culture? Can I hope for the end? Certainly not after witnessing American politics stooping to an all-time low where moral ethics left in ashes. It certainly has become a fucking amusement park under the 45th. As a matter of fact, America has become a laughing stock for the world.

So, anyway, where can I see the sudden end of racial wars? On the contrary, I fear it escalating to more severe devastation. And I think it got a lot to do with the existence of concrete pipelines of hatred, alienation and estrangement pumping communities of America, I don't see the end.

To blame any of this continuing nonsense on one political party or the other is patently ridiculous. The fundamental problem is that politicians, news outlets, and people in general like to put people into buckets. When people are put into buckets, it's easy to make claims of unfair treatment whether it is racial, gender, nationality, or any of the other possible buckets oriented.

We will never get past this until we call people people instead of insulting a particular group by calling them out by that group label. For example, I don't recall which super bowl it was, but both of the coaches were black, and the media was fixated on having the first black coach to win a super bowl. When they/we should have been fixated on a great coach winning a big game. Color, gender, nationality, etc. shouldn't be part of the equation. Until we get to the point where we hold people up for doing great or stupid things by name instead of by one of the labels, we will always have tension. A great person does a great thing; a stupid person does a stupid thing. No black, white, Asian, woman, whatever...

I just want to make a quick point about the destruction of confederacy statues and the argument that it is the same as "destroying history".

No, it's not. History, the sort of history that we can learn about and learn from is not in a statue located in a public square; It is in books in libraries, it can be found in museums or the memories of individuals who've witnessed it.

Statues are not erected to preserve history, let alone to teach history, they're erected to honor and glorify a person and in the case of racists and traitors, those statues are honoring people who shouldn't be honored or glorified.

Bringing such statues down is not a destruction of history, it is in fact sending a historical message that evils once tolerated are tolerated no longer by a more enlightened generation.