Another woman with allegations: link (Google translated from German media, click the red left button at the cookie banner).

Written by RaduP on 06.06.2023 at 15:41

This is a pretty good article / investigation on the subject.

She confirms that she had not been raped, but she had bruises on her body. Those could be from pretty much anybody (potentially drunk/high themselves) trying to help her up (she was probably tumbling around a lot) or from whoever dragged her back to her hotel room. Or maybe Till was pissed at this Makeeva lady for providing him with somebody who turned him down, then Makeeva herself got angry and dragged Lynn around roughly at some point?

Either way, when she last saw him before blacking out, he was going on stage for the show. There are so many other people there that could have potentially harmed her. So Till's crime would be to spike her drink and then asking her for sex. Maybe negligence as well for leaving her blacked out high on her own?

She claims that all the girls in row 0 kept falling over from being high (not drunk). If that's the case, there should be plenty of witnesses and probably also some video footage. Depending on the venue, maybe we get some good angle from a balcony that also shows row 0. It's fucking Rammstein; surely somebody filmed something useful. Witnesses and footage will be the deciding factor whether it comes to a trial or not; they just need enough of each.

Best case scenario: Nothing happened and Till gets scared straight, treating women with more respect from now on.

Worst case scenario: Till goes to jail for intended rape. (Not sure about Lithuania, but in some countries spiking someone's drink with intent to fuck them later is considered rape.)

Written by RaduP on 06.06.2023 at 15:41

This is a pretty good article / investigation on the subject.

That does seem like a responsibly journalistic piece. Appreciate the link.

I am, as always, disturbed at how easily people go from Lynn saying that Till did not rape her to claiming that this means there was no sexual misconduct and no assault. Lynn has just made clear that Till did not have sexual intercourse with her after she made it clear that she did not consent. That is good, but it is a sort of minimal good. It does not mean that Lynn did not have her consent violated if someone did, as she suspects, try to drug her to coerce consent.

Her consent is hers to give or to revoke as she chooses, and whether or not she chooses to drink has no bearing on that. And if she was given something other than alcohol without her knowledge, that is also a violation of her consent.

None of Rammstein's statements contradict any of this, they just claim that these things were not done with the authorization of or in the presence of "the band." That leaves a lot of gray area with all of the third parties involved.

And no one should be the least bit surprised if an artist whose art is a celebration of pushing boundaries finds himself under investigation for whether or not a boundary has been pushed too far. The only boundaries one can push ethically are ones own, not someone else's.

Written by AlabamaMan666 on 06.06.2023 at 18:31

Another woman with allegations: link (Google translated from German media, click the red left button at the cookie banner).

Oh man, starting to look worse and worse.

It says at the end that the band never paid Makeeva for anything. I think this should be read as "Rammstein (Trademark) never paid her anything from any of the collective band's accounts", which means pretty much nothing. Obviously some people get paid under the table, especially if there's drugs involved.

Once again, I'm gonna give all parties involved the benefit of the doubt, but he is starting to look more and more guilty. Good thing I didn't buy my wife and myself any tickets for their upcoming shows, because I'm not expecting them to finish their stadium tour anymore.

Grah, I had fun with Rammstein while they lasted, but this looks like the beginning of the end.

Written by Brutal Water on 05.06.2023 at 17:25

Well, after Johnny Depp, Marilyn Manson and the guy from Rick & Morty, does it really surprise you that everybody's first reaction is doubt? It's better to doubt than to jump to conclusions and getting innocent people fired.

Written by Brutal Water on 06.06.2023 at 21:57

Oh man, starting to look worse and worse.
[...]
Once again, I'm gonna give all parties involved the benefit of the doubt, but he is starting to look more and more guilty. Good thing I didn't buy my wife and myself any tickets for their upcoming shows, because I'm not expecting them to finish their stadium tour anymore.

Grah, I had fun with Rammstein while they lasted, but this looks like the beginning of the end.

Wow, that was a quick turnaround!

May I ask if Kayla Shyx's video made you change your mind? I'm asking because I think it's virtually impossible to watch this without realizing that the accusations are actually true, and that this is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
On the other hand, Kayla isn't revealing anything that hasn't already been said. Said a hundred times.


By the way, the band's management announced a few hours ago that Alena Makeeva has been banned from Rammstein's entourage. The band's "casting director" Makeeva, who had vehemently defended Lindemann all the time and called all accusations lies, is denied access to the band's concerts with immediate effect.

If this is not an admission of guilt and/or a desperate attempt to quickly find a scapegoat, I don't know what is.

Written by Starvynth on 07.06.2023 at 01:14

Wow, that was a quick turnaround!

May I ask if Kayla Shyx's video made you change your mind? I'm asking because I think it's virtually impossible to watch this without realizing that the accusations are actually true, and that this is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
On the other hand, Kayla isn't revealing anything that hasn't already been said. Said a hundred times.


By the way, the band's management announced a few hours ago that Alena Makeeva has been banned from Rammstein's entourage. The band's "casting director" Makeeva, who had vehemently defended Lindemann all the time and called all accusations lies, is denied access to the band's concerts with immediate effect.

If this is not an admission of guilt and/or a desperate attempt to quickly find a scapegoat, I don't know what is.

I have not watched that video (yet). I'm just going by all the other information available.

The first post was from before I read the more in-depth article linked by RaduP further down. With what little information available, all I could do was shrug and go, "no offense, but we heard that one before, so you're gonna need some more evidence to put weight into it."

Then there was the more in-depth article which made me think, "damn, I *hope* this isn't true, but based on what she said, there must be plenty of witnesses, so we should soon find out the truth."

And now the other article with more women coming forward... *sigh* This is not how I wanted it to go. I was hoping for a scenario where it turned out to be a lie, nobody got inconvenienced in any way, and life moved on as usual.

Alas, here we are now. Even if they manage to settle matters quietly, I'm gonna feel really icky during certain Rammstein and Lindemann songs now.

So... yes, quick turnaround. I cannot express how disappointed I am in Till right now. This is giving me flashbacks to when I learned more about Varg Vikernes and it tainted my enjoyment of Burzum to a certain extent.

Written by corrupt on 06.06.2023 at 17:32

For the record:

We have banned mdx for a combination of creating an account solely to antagonize other users, and being openly transphobic and misogynistic.

This is not a community for such ideologies. We aim to run a metal website that is open and inclusive, and holds people accountable, and we will ban people who try to destroy this for anyone.

Can I just ask about the transphobia? I do see misogyny (just calling women 'females' and ascribing them universal truths instantly reminds me of the red-pill spaces) but... is she is not afraid to use the word woman properly at its designated meaning it?

Still, thank you for the aim, I find it very important, especially in metal subculture.

Written by Andrew_Deer on 07.06.2023 at 09:46
Can I just ask about the transphobia? I do see misogyny (just calling women 'females' and ascribing them universal truths instantly reminds me of the red-pill spaces) but... is she is not afraid to use the word woman properly at its designated meaning it?

Still, thank you for the aim, I find it very important, especially in metal subculture.

That‘s the one we‘re referring to. We wouldn‘t have banned him for that alone though. Trolls will usually try to walk a line of being edgy while still within the written rules. Usually we contact people via PM and ask them to change posts or be less aggressive. In this case, as I said, it is the combination of his general demeanor, and his offensive takes on minorities and victims of sexual violence.
We warned him and gave him the benefit of the doubt, but at the end of the day, if someone doesn‘t have anything but hate and antagonism to contribute, we will just make the call.

Written by corrupt on 06.06.2023 at 17:16

It was legal in Germany to rape your wife until 1997. Would you say that women raped while that was not considered a crime weren‘t victims?

That is not what I meant, marital rape is wrong, even if a legal system says otherwise. I'm not a legalist. But I do believe that the rule of law as a principle also applies outside of the legal realm, as in that we shouldn't blindly believe anyone who claims to be the victim of a crime on merely their word. It's what separates a civil society from a barbaric society.

Quote:
At the same time it was illegal to be homosexual in Germany until 1994 based on a law that predated the nazi regime but was severely aggravated by the nazis. Are people who were „legally“ punished before 1994 simply for existing not victims?

That depends. To my knowledge, so-called anti sodomy laws also applied to cases of rape and pedophilia. I'd say people justly convicted for that are not victims, and I can't imagine you thinking otherwise (such offenses carry a different name nowadays of course).

Quote:
I‘ve said this before, courts of law often cannot protect victims of sexual harassment. That doesn‘t mean they‘re not victims.

Agreed. In that case there's a social solution needed to solve such a problem (meaning that the victim should be taken out of such an environment if possible). I'm not saying this lightly, my sister was sexually assaulted by my grandfather, which some family members refused to believe and my father was too weak to act on it. We should have broken every contact with my grandfather at the very least, as my aunt and uncle did when the same thing happened to their daughters (they got shunned and lied about for years after that).

Quote:
Also, this case is not one of a single woman making claims, as mdx wants to frame it. It is multiple women telling shockingly similar stories that came forth independently. Backed up by people from within the scene saying these practices have been an open secret for basically decades.

It wouldn't surprise me honestly. But that doesn't mean we should jump to any next steps prematurely. As a wise man once told me, if someone should be hanged, it should be done so correctly at least.

Quote:
Society can condemn people even if they‘re found innocent by courts of law. Large scale tax evasion is one of these cases where pepetrators are rarely caught in time to be prosecuted, but still universally condemned when their cases are discovered. Yet, victims of sexual violence almost always find themselves in a position where they are attacked, questioned, and stalked instead of helped. We don‘t have to be that way.

There is truth in what you say. But it's also true that allegations of sexual misconduct prove to be false or even outright lies. Such claims should be taken seriously because of the seriousness of such crimes, but it is exactly this seriousness that requires a certain amount of proof. Of course there's the risk that an abuser will run free, but between that and the risk of condeming people falsely, I'd rather risk the former.

Written by Andrew_Deer on 07.06.2023 at 09:46




Can I just ask about the transphobia? I do see misogyny (just calling women 'females'...)

I geniunly did not know that calling women "females" is offensive. Is that a real thing? You see a lot of terms like "female colleagues", "female CEOs" etc in corporate jargon so I assumed it is ok.

Written by Andreas on 07.06.2023 at 11:35
That depends. To my knowledge, so-called anti sodomy laws also applied to cases of rape and pedophilia. I'd say people justly convicted for that are not victims, and I can't imagine you thinking otherwise (such offenses carry a different name nowadays of course)

I do think otherwise, as that is not what happened. What did happen is that anti-gay laws were misused to also include such offenses based on a conservative talking point that equates homosexuality with pedophilia. It was a means of systematic discrimination and nothing about it was ever just or lawful by any social standard other than actual law text at the time.

Written by Andreas on 07.06.2023 at 11:35
Agreed. In that case there's a social solution needed to solve such a problem (meaning that the victim should be taken out of such an environment if possible). I'm not saying this lightly, my sister was sexually assaulted by my grandfather, which some family members refused to believe and my father was too weak to act on it. We should have broken every contact with my grandfather at the very least, as my aunt and uncle did when the same thing happened to their daughters (they got shunned and lied about for years after that).

I’m very sorry to hear about your sister
This is, however, a good case for my point of holding people accountable. There is a difference between simply accepting that the world and society work in a specific way and then trying to protect people individually, and trying to change these aspects of society. I firmly believe that the best protection we can give any disenfranchised and discriminated group in society is to abolish the prejudice and behavioral structure that lead to this discrimination in the first place.
That doesn‘t mean there is nothing to do for victims of injustice right now, especially in cases like your sister‘s where support by a loving family and friends is probably the most important thing she can receive. But it does mean we as a society have to work together to become a better, safer space for everyone.

Written by Andreas on 07.06.2023 at 11:35
It wouldn't surprise me honestly. But that doesn't mean we should jump to any next steps prematurely. As a wise man once told me, if someone should be hanged, it should be done so correctly at least.

What do you mean here? Nobody is jumping to conclusions about Lindemann. The only conclusions that were prematurely drawn here so far is that the women whose cases are being discussed supposedly made them up for some sort of personal gain. This whole thread only exists because people felt it necessary - in the light of sexual harassment charges - to jump to the defense of the alleged perpetrator, outright refusing to hear the victims‘ cases.
I have to say on a personal note though, that the sheer number of cases and the levels of detail in which they are presented makes it hard for me to conjure any sympathy for Lindemann. And I would argue that - us all being emotional human beings - that is an OK reaction.

Written by Andreas on 07.06.2023 at 11:35
There is truth in what you say. But it's also true that allegations of sexual misconduct prove to be false or even outright lies. Such claims should be taken seriously because of the seriousness of such crimes, but it is exactly this seriousness that requires a certain amount of proof. Of course there's the risk that an abuser will run free, but between that and the risk of condeming people falsely, I'd rather risk the former.

I won‘t. We already live in a society in which most sexual violence goes unpunished. I know this is extremely difficult terrain to navigate and I know of cases where people were wrongly accused, myself. In such cases there usually are no winners, only losers and it is true that lives have been destroyed by such allegations even though they turned out to be unfounded.

BUT (and this is super important to me) if we take away from such cases a mistrust towards people who openly speak about their experience with sexual violence, these people will never find a safe place to talk about their experience and work through their trauma. Sexual harassment destroys lives, too. And we know that most cases, especially of domestic sexual violence, are never even made public.
So I choose to believe a person talking about their experiences. I choose to hear them out, support them as much as I can in whatever way I can, and try to help create a society that respects and listens to people instead of outright condemning them. This is not a condemnation of an alleged perpetrator, but it is also not a blanket acquittal on a pretense of lacking evidence.
It‘s just my personal approach to help making this a better world.

Starting with this community right here.

Written by Andreas on 07.06.2023 at 11:35

But I do believe that the rule of law as a principle also applies outside of the legal realm, as in that we shouldn't blindly believe anyone who claims to be the victim of a crime on merely their word. It's what separates a civil society from a barbaric society.

Not here to disagree, but to say that I think we can uphold this principle and support people who come forward with allegations of gender based violence at the same time. Judgment can come after due process.

People always say "innocent until proven guilty" as if it should only apply to the accused, but if we really believed in the principle we'd apply that same standard to the person bringing the accusation as well. If our job as a society is to protect the innocent from injustice, then we need to be equal in our application of that standard on all sides.

I don't think we do a good job of this.

Written by mz on 07.06.2023 at 12:20

Written by Andrew_Deer on 07.06.2023 at 09:46
Can I just ask about the transphobia? I do see misogyny (just calling women 'females'...)

I geniunly did not know that calling women "females" is offensive. Is that a real thing? You see a lot of terms like "female colleagues", "female CEOs" etc in corporate jargon so I assumed it is ok.

It is one of those things that depends very much on context and intention. "Female" isn't a slur or a derogatory term on its own, and used as an adjective as in the examples you gave, it's a perfectly mundane description. Generally speaking - but not exclusively - you'll see "female" used as the adjective/descriptor and "woman" as the noun/subject/nominative ("female" being the Latin derivative and "woman" being the Germanic derivative). But it is sometimes the case in the English language - and this does tend to vary based on region and context - that turning an adjective into a noun, particularly in regard to describing groups of people, has the effect of making the word sound belittling or disdainful and, therefore, offensive.

The major idea behind this is that when you refer to someone and want to provide some detail about them, the natural way is to express it as "adjective + noun", e.g. "a female colleague," "a Chinese friend," "a black comptroller," "an epileptic librarian." By using the adjective alone as the entire subject, there is an implied dropping of the "person" part, as if to overlook that individual's humanity and reduce them to a single characteristic; thus referring to someone as "a female" or "a black" or "a Chinese" would come off as demeaning. What reinforces the sour taste of these constructions is that they are or were mostly used in discriminatory contexts with the intention of judging people's perceived inferiority based on that single characteristic; in this particular case, describing people as "females" where colloquially you would say "women" sounds kind of anthropological, and by extension deprecatory, both because of and resulting in its popular use among misogynistic communities whose view of women is as a complete reduction to one inferior description.

It is a slim nuance, admittedly, and it can be confusing. As another example, no one would find it offensive if you referred to someone as "a German" instead of "a German person," because "German" is well-established as both a noun and an adjective. It may not always be appropriate depending on the context, but it's an ordinary use of the word that requires no cross-wiring of linguistic function. This is one of those things that can be difficult to pick up on and that different native-speaking communities will have different impressions of.

Anyway, the short answer is when you see folks on this site talking about "female vocalists" or whatnot, that has no special implication or connotation. But when you get users like mdx talking about "picking select females" and "females instinctively know", you see they're talking about women as if they were livestock and it's evident that they do not believe that women have or deserve any kind of dignity.

Written by mz on 07.06.2023 at 12:20

Written by Andrew_Deer on 07.06.2023 at 09:46

Can I just ask about the transphobia? I do see misogyny (just calling women 'females'...)

I geniunly did not know that calling women "females" is offensive. Is that a real thing? You see a lot of terms like "female colleagues", "female CEOs" etc in corporate jargon so I assumed it is ok.

Oh ye, as has been said, I don't really mean the denotate "woman", rather the implication it has... there are subcultures where they use the term "females" (and tbh not sure why they dont use women as much) as a subject to ascribe some ultimate properties to, such as " [all] females value money, self-esteem" and stuff, so it reminds me of that. (you might've heard of Andrew Tate eg) Although it would be unfair to push this onto the banned guy, I haven't really heard this word used elsewhere, where there would be this call for "PC cancel culture" things as well. But hey.. maybe it was just a bit too personal take, for which I apologize. ^^

Written by ScreamingSteelUS on 07.06.2023 at 20:42


detailed informative post

Thanks a lot. This is really appreciated. As you can imagine, it is a bit hard to understand these nuances if you are a non-native speaker and also have not been exposed to communities that use terms like "female" in a derogatory way.
I had not paid attention to the grammatical differences that exist for the word "female" between something like "female CEOs" and just plain "females do this and that." before and might have used the wrong construct in my daily life, which I will try to fix from now on.

Written by Andrew_Deer on 07.06.2023 at 22:36


(you might've heard of Andrew Tate eg)

I recently saw some of his garbage on my Instagram feed and initially thought he is a comedian trying to parody men trying to be hyper-masculine and alpha. Then I realized he is serious and was shocked to see his popularity.

Innocent until proven guilty. There's a fine line between being a criminal or just a sleazebag.

I love the doubt people have towards this. "You mean to tell me that this weird edgy af sex obsessed guy who makes songs about killing and raping women is probably a sex offender?????"

Written by Desha on 10.06.2023 at 10:48

I love the doubt people have towards this. "You mean to tell me that this weird edgy af sex obsessed guy who makes songs about killing and raping women is probably a sex offender?????"

Dimmu Borgir - Tormentor of Christian Souls :
"I could drag you to my chambers
And strip you naked in darkness
I could pull your fingernails out one by one
And rape you till you find no hope"

Why is Shaggy not in prison yet? Oh wait, it's called art. I get it.

Written by SamuelYK on 10.06.2023 at 15:50

Written by Desha on 10.06.2023 at 10:48

I love the doubt people have towards this. "You mean to tell me that this weird edgy af sex obsessed guy who makes songs about killing and raping women is probably a sex offender?????"

Dimmu Borgir - Tormentor of Christian Souls :
"I could drag you to my chambers
And strip you naked in darkness
I could pull your fingernails out one by one
And rape you till you find no hope"

Why is Shaggy not in prison yet? Oh wait, it's called art. I get it.

Who said to lock them up for the lyrics? Don't be pathetic. My whole point was this is exactly the type of guy who would be a serial sex offender rock band frontman. So people being shocked about it and being so insanely defensive when they have 0 fucking context is laughable. Not that the art is in any way ban worthy.

Again, you said this is "EXACTLY" the type of guy who would do such things. That means Shaggy should be put on rape watch and Cannibal Corpse are put on parole whenever a murder is being made in their surroundings if we go this route.
Again, I'm not defending Till, I'm defending basic law. Till can be a pervert, sleazebag, provocateur, sex addict etc.. if there is consent, there is no crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

Written by SamuelYK on 11.06.2023 at 17:12

Again, you said this is "EXACTLY" the type of guy who would do such things. That means Shaggy should be put on rape watch and Cannibal Corpse are put on parole whenever a murder is being made in their surroundings if we go this route.
Again, I'm not defending Till, I'm defending basic law. Till can be a pervert, sleazebag, provocateur, sex addict etc.. if there is consent, there is no crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

No that's not what that means. That means if shaggy would be a rapist I wouldn't go "OMG NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!". Also Till has much more than a bit of lyrics that makes him shady af. It's that easy. "I'm not defending Till" except you have zero fucking context and you claim this "if there is consent" shit when you don't know the situation. The law doesn't say "please when someone is accused of rape say 'omg no way stop treating him like a potential rapist'".
When I go out, people like Till are exactly the type of people I really watch out for and don't accept drinks from. Doesn't mean he's a rapist automatically, just that I would really not be surprised in the slightest if he was. No one claimed that he's a rapist in this comment section. Stop defending people you don't know on charges that aren't being made by people you're talking to, it's just pathetic.

" No one claimed that he's a rapist in this comment section." - oh, really.
" Stop defending people you don't know on charges that aren't being made by people you're talking to, it's just pathetic. " - that's the opposite what I said in my second to the last sentence.

Done talking to you.

SamuelYK, please read through this whole thread. There is plenty of explanation as to why the judicial system isn‘t a suitable tool to protect victims of sexual abuse. You can also read up on this topic on the Internet. None of this is hard to find.

This discussion came about not because people were condemning Lindemann, but because they were defending him. It came about because apparently, even in 2023, people still need to be explained what sexual violence does to a person, what it means, both personally and in public pushback, to bring forth charges against a famous person, and that you can show empathy and compassion without having to align yourself with anyone.

The whole „innocent until proven guilty“ argument pretends that this is purely a legal issue, which it isn‘t. That reasoning is disenfranchising minorities 101. It is very, very, very unlikely that these events will have legal consequences for Lindemann. Even though there are numerous reports and women are still coming out with their own versions of these stories, the legal system is created around having to prove a crime, which is basically impossible in these cases.
That doesn‘t mean, however, that these things didn‘t happen as described. And the sheer number of similar cases in combination with the fact that this play book has been used by other bands for similar things in the past, makes it very hard for me to even consider that Lindemann didn‘t commit these acts of violence.

Desha‘s point works retrospectively. Lindemann‘s lyrics, videos, and antics have progressively revolved around sexual fantasies in the last, say 15 years. Looking back at that with this new information made them go „huh, that makes sense now“. You‘re accusing them of doing the opposite: Looking at lyrics and outright condemning the author. That‘s not what they did.
Leaving aside whether lyrics about sexual violence are cool to begin with in a world where 1 in 30 women are raped at least once in their lives (and that is only official numbers and only the western world, so assume that to be way higher), there are definitely a lot of men out there who are „just“ expressing fantasies they would never act on, but once you have acted on them and that becomes publicly known, these songs create context that is hard to ignore.
No reason to get worked up over that.

I understand everything being said, I've read through the thread. Look, I've lost a friend of mine not long ago due to suicide when similar accusations proved to be false, even expressed and apologized publicly by the so-called victim, but the stigma and destruction of public reputation remained and broke the guy down. It destroys families and lives and I don't believe everyone has best intention in mind when they are throwing accusations around, therefore I'm very reserved to the term "guilty until proven innocent" concept.

Written by SamuelYK on 12.06.2023 at 12:28

I understand everything being said, I've read through the thread. Look, I've lost a friend of mine not long ago due to suicide when similar accusations proved to be false, even expressed and apologized publicly by the so-called victim, but the stigma and destruction of public reputation remained and broke the guy down. It destroys families and lives and I don't believe everyone has best intention in mind when they are throwing accusations around, therefore I'm very reserved to the term "guilty until proven innocent" concept.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. These things happen, too. Nobody here will deny that or the fact that society is lacking there as well. But since you have read the whole thread, you know that no condemnation has taken place here, despite these allegations being brought forth by a double-digit number of women at this point.

If you jump from a single case of false allegations to questioning all allegations, however, you will inevitably end up protecting perpetrators and not victims. And since these allegations are almost impossible to prove, that would lead us into a society where victims of sexual violence can never even be heard, much less believed. That's not a world I want to live in.

And throwing a blanket statement like "innocent until proven guilty" into a thread that had already moved towards a way more nuanced assessment of the situation will do nothing to further that discussion.

Written by corrupt on 12.06.2023 at 12:45

If you jump from a single case of false allegations to questioning all allegations, however, you will inevitably end up protecting perpetrators and not victims.

And vice versa. I will now remove myself from this thread.

Written by SamuelYK on 12.06.2023 at 12:53

Written by corrupt on 12.06.2023 at 12:45

If you jump from a single case of false allegations to questioning all allegations, however, you will inevitably end up protecting perpetrators and not victims.

And vice versa. I will now remove myself from this thread.

But there‘s a power dynamic at play here. You can see from the general response to these allegations that Lindemann has all the support he needs. He has the means to issue cease and decist letters and probably to outright bankrupt Shelby, he will definitely have the means to live through a long court case that he has a very slim chance to be convicted in anyway, and - most of all - he has millions of fans world wide who jump to his support, continue going to shows, and question everything brought forth against him.
That‘s not the same position your friend was in, I assume. But this power dynamic is what lets famous people get away with shit like this over and over again while victims are left without help or support. No need to mention, this leads to suicides, too.

So assuming these allegations are false, there is no way Lindemann will suffer any consequences but an out-of-court settlement. And even that has a very slim chance of happening.

Assuming they are true, though, that will leave Shelby hated by Rammstein fans globally, possibly ruin her financially and maybe even break her completely. She has to deal with her trauma with hopefully loving support by her family and friends, but not by society at large. Her life is changed forever, because of what happened that night, while her abuser will face basically nothing in consequences.

Fucking Tim Lambesis is back on stage, being cheered on by hundreds of thousands of fans worldwide. That should say enough about accountability. He still has a record deal and a band to play with (albeit a new one) while his ex-wife is left to her own devices in dealing with her trauma, possibly leaving her afraid for the rest of her life. That‘s the society we live in and and that‘s our community. He was proven guilty and is fully back on his feet no ten years later.

Nobody here is saying „pick a side“. But if you hide behind „innocent until proven guilty“ you are picking a side. You are siding with the accused because of this power dynamic. All people are asking of you is to hear out the numerous people bringing forth similar accusations and not immediately rule them out. That‘s a very low bar to clear but will do a lot for victims of sexual abuse to be heard.

This is very much a case of the more you read, the more obvious it gets.

Systematic drugging, restricted ability to leave, no ID checks on age, and lots of women and girls from various countries speaking out...this isn't like the Tool case at all, which was sketchy but at least had plausible deniability on communication breakdown between Maynard and his crew, whereas this was obviously encouraged by Till given his own drug use and outbursts.

As said above, innocent until proven guilty applies to the accuser as well as the accused, but either way the evidence is growing every day, and evidence is what creates proof.

From rape allegations to "What is A Woman/Female" disscusion... Metal Storm is becoming edgy.